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26 Responses to “Buy Propecia No Prescription”

  1. Andris

    I totally agree with you.

    Clients only care wether the site looks “right” or not. No client will ever care about how “standard” his website will be.

  2. Ivan

    I agree with you, Anthony. Also, one thing that I don’t get is putting Valid XHTML/CSS links in the footer of the page, especially when it’s about corporate page or page of similar topic.
    As you stated, it’s normal nowadays that web designer/developer should provide client with standards-compliant web pages, and putting these links at the bottom of the page just makes you somehow snobist. I’m just saying that these statements don’t have place in pages of that type. When it’s about your portfolio page, it’s another thing. If someone wants to know if your work is standards compliant, they will know how to do it.

  3. Tom

    I agree with you, but it depends from the place where you work. In Italy, having a valid and standard compliant site is not so obvious (sadly).

    I’ll keep up promoting my standard compliant works, hoping things will change soon.

  4. Azeem

    I can see your point - but one can argue that many many companies/clients don’t even know or fully understand what “standards compliment code” is or the benefits of using it - thus the “car comes with wheels” analogy doesn’t really work because absolutely everyone knows what is expected from a car.

    Although I would somewhat agree that it’s not imperative for a company/client to understand what exactly in “under the hood” and to just make the website work - but with something as relatively new as standards compliment websites, it’s only natural for people to still be mentioning it.

    It happens all the time - Car manufacturers for example love to advertise their newly developed “V8 advanced 200 horsepower engine etc” in commercials - despite it being largely jargon to the layman.

  5. liam

    I think it’s just a case of “Everyone else is doing it” - And you are 100% right, and I think especially when you say that “Nobody Important cares” - Most clients won’t understand what it is, or the need for it.

    I think the only case where it might be valid is for companies who’s clients consist mainly of designers or programmers; who would understand what it means, and have a need for it.

  6. Trevor Davis

    I am going to have to disagree. I think you would be surprised as to how many people DO NOT use standards compliant code. Even though clients may not understand what it means to have standard compliant code, it it our job as web developers to convey the importance of it.

  7. Michael Fienen

    I think part of this is a marketing angle. You and I know that writing standards compliant code should be automatic, but when a room full of execs are comparing RFPs or something from a dozen companies, and they lay out their feature grid, and 11 note writing compliant code and one doesn’t mention it (even if they actually do, but just chose not to mention it), suddenly they are at a disadvantage. The board room execs have no clue that such a “feature” shouldn’t even be in question, they just know it didn’t show up on their grid.

  8. Zinni

    What I am more referring to is the large statement on the front page of your homepage or the business that is built completely on the idea of valid XHTML/CSS. You can still put that you offer those services, just be deeper than that. I am suggesting that people think harder and offer something over and above instead of becoming a standards clone.

    I know that not everyone offers it but that doesn’t mean just because you do that you are a better service. If you think about it it is really easy to offer these services, anyone could hire a new employee that specializes in it or even outsource the initial production. It matters, but not enough to be the foundation of your business.

  9. liam

    @Michael Fienen - I completely agree with you. I think if you didn’t include it but you can do it you might be missing out on some clients, who don’t know what it is, but see that everyone else mentions it.

    I think a mention of it is a lot more reasonable than using it as a selling point - which unfortunately a lot of people seem to be doing.

  10. Daniel

    I disagree with you on this one. My company is going through a redesign effort on our main site. The design firm that came in started with wanting to build a flash site and had never heard of CSS or Standards or any of these items. It was only when IT explained the value of it that they agreed to work this way (and were happy to get the education in how to be a better design firm).

    There are still many folks who don’t understand these points and don’t see the value. It is still a distinguishing value from a design firm.

     — The design firm we chose did excellent design work, but had limited web experience and is looking to do more in this area. They’re good people, so we were glad to educate them.

  11. Zinni

    Daniel,

    I think what you are describing is more along the lines of the firms inability to accurately judge your needs and deliver a proper solution. Also SEO is not intrinsically tied to valid HTML/CSS that is just a misconception. While it does benefit it, it is only a small part.

  12. Bob

    Web standards are important to those who know. But to those who don’t I’ve found the best way to translate is to tell them the benefits - faster loading, multiple browser support, easier to make changes, etc.

    To take it one step further…sell your clients on what really separates you apart from everyone else: keep your promises. That means respond quickly, finish up when you said you would, deal with problems immediately. It is these traits that clients come to me for (after being frustrated with the competition).

  13. Kerwin

    Thanks for pointing out the obvious, i never really understood why people needed to point these things out anyway, it’s what you’re paid for…

    Kerwin’s latest post: Antwerpen Trip #2

  14. Angel Grablev

    Alright i can see where you derived your conclusions. To a certain degree i can agree, but the fact is i believe you are missing the point. It is important to state that you do clear work… and it has become a “thing” in web development that you do fine work if you follow web standards. So even though everyone may be doing it, client’s may not fully understand what it is but they know there is a reason for it to be there. So anyone is welcome to say they DON’T use current standards but for those who want to sound smart :) will keep using it.

  15. J. Jeffryes

    Everyone has to remember that the rest of the world doesn’t move at internet speed. There are still companies out there getting used to the idea that the web exists, much less that it has standards. Declaring that you write standards based code makes a difference for that kind of client. Advertising standards educates them, and forces everyone else to also offer valid code.

    @ Zinni: SEO can be separate from good design and coding, in the same way typography can be separate from layout. A designer that knows what they are doing automatically incorporates SEO, standards, and clean, readable code as part of the design process. As far as I am concerned, they are all part of proper web design.

    J. Jeffryes’s latest post: A Simple Solution for Design Contests

  16. Zinni

    J. Jeffryes

    I agree 100% good web design is about more than the aesthetic. It takes time to take your design skills and learn how to apply them effectively towards the web.

    Thank you once again for your comment, I think you understand where I was going with this article. It’s not so much about not making the claim, just realizing that there is probably a lot better statements you could make.

  17. J. Jeffryes

    @ Zinni: I think we’re on the same page.

    What we’re facing as an industry is that a whole new definition of “proper” web design has emerged from the wild west of the early net. It demands clean code, a firm division between content and layout, cross-browser, standards-compliant CSS, and a focus on usability. It’s moved away from art and become more like product design.

    We’re still in the early stages of that transition, there are going to be a lot of growing pains as clients and designers learn what great web design really is.

  18. Billy G

    Sorry, but this is a really dumb article.

    Every legitimate industry in the world has standards. If you are a movie producer, and you want your movie to appear in as many theaters as possible, your crew has to adhere to certain production standards. Perhaps the movie producer doesn’t need to worry about standards, since every major studio already adheres to their industry standards very well.

    But, with the Internet, only a minority of the designers out there know about the standards. How else would you be able to tell them apart? How else would we be able to educate clients on why some design firms are better than others?

  19. robotoverlord

    I agree - however I’m still amazed at what people don’t know. I spoke to a very competent .net developer a few weeks ago who didn’t seem to understand how CSS worked and why it’s important. In ways it is important to evangelize the gospel of standards so that it keeps everyone on the same page, but as a designer (and a business minded one at that) the most important thing to clients is always going to be good cross-browser testing - which isn’t always about validation.

  20. Zinni

    Billy,

    Standards are a good thing, This article is about effectively marketing your company not whether standards are a good thing or not. Also you could tell firms apart by their talent and creativity, because in my opinion that is what ultimately matters. I would also argue that more than a minority know about web standards by now, some just choose not to use them but that is pretty rapidly changing amongst the firms who offer a high level of service.

  21. Joram Oudenaarde

    The problem with saying “I make standards compliant website” is the same as telling a client something along the lines of “if I increase the lineheight, it will look better”.

    In both cases the client doesn’t care because they don’t see the difference. It’s something designers and/or developers have learned to see, but for clients and consumers this is rarely the case. Clients/consumers don’t see these difference, but if they’re in a store (or browsing the internet) they almost always pick the one with the right lineheight/compliant code. That’s because although they can’t see it, they do experience that extra bit of quality.

    And that’s where a lot of design- and developingcompanies go wrong… they try to educate the client-to-be that they need to have standards compliant websites and proper lineheight in their designs. To be very blunt: who cares?
    Designers and developers áre problemsolvers and educators to a certain degree. But most of all, we’re in a business where most clients don’t know and don’t care what you do. They want pretty pictures that will make their company run better, and be more exposed to the public.

    A lot of designers/developers are trying to teach the client the wrong thing. Instead of teaching them that they need standards, proper lineheight and that sort of thing, they need to teach their client that it’s all about the experience that consumers will have when they see the endresult.

    Is it compliant code that you want to teach the client? Make sure you explain it to them by telling them that a good and good-coded website will result in a better experience.

    Is it a 1pt bigger lineheight or a 2% lighter PMS-tint? Make sure you explain it to them by telling them that it’s easier on the eyes (for example) and that a consumer will feel more comfortable with a design like this instead of a design that doesn’t “feel” right.

    We’re teaching experience, not technical mumbo-jumbo ;)

  22. Phunky

    Its taken years to get to this point where Web Standards has in fact become Standard.

    But for a lot of people it still is a selling point, you state that Clients dont care but some also dont know about it - so its used as a lure “if you come with us your will be standard compliant!”

    Standard compliant does not mean that it is well coded or even accessible but you are correct it is over used but then what isn’t in our trade?

    There always some badge or must have feature that every client has seen somewhere else that is use to lure them in.

    I think its great that it has finally become Standard to code towards the “Web Standards” even if its just to get a VALID 4.1 badge on there Transitional markup page!

    Phunky’s latest post: Twitter Updates for 2008-04-22

  23. Derryl

    I think the reason people advertise their valid CSS/HTML is precisely because legions of “designers” still fail to provide this service, which, I agree, should be able to merit assumption.

  24. Spilt Milk

    Could not agree more.

    Posts like these make me breath a sigh of relief. I’m minded of when I first read this blog post way back when: http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/06/march-to-your-own-standard

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